Toward A More Constructive Dialogue

[athelind]

I could have phrased Monday night's entry more tactfully, and probably should have. Several people whose opinions I value and respect have noted that accusing those who disagree with you of being stupid, deluded or worse will win no converts and prove no points.

With the outrage and frustration filtered out, what I was really trying to say was, "What are you people thinking??"

On that level, this was not an entirely unsuccessful attempt at communication. Several of you did give some indication of what you've been thinking.

You think, apparently, that George Walker Bush is a "conservative".

Please note that I did not attack the conservative philosophy. I did not claim that one had to be Stupid, Deluded or Corrupt to adhere to conservative ideals. While I disagree with many -- though not all -- conservative positions, while I am in fact far more willing to proudly embrace the label of "Liberal" than any candidate endorsed by the Democratic party in well over a decade, I can indeed see the logic and the internal consistency of conservatism.

The single author who most deeply influenced my personal philosophy is well-known -- even infamous -- for his conservative views, particularly later in life. I may have reached different conclusions than he did, but I still hold his opinions and his thought processes in the deepest respect.

I think, however, that, were Robert Heinlein still alive, the regime of George Walker Bush would horrify him.

He has, in hafoc's words, "...betrayed the good conservative principles while throwing all his strength behind the bad ones."

Comments

[cargoweasel.livejournal.com]

Why would Heinlein have been horrified? We're basically headed towards the world of Starship Troopers.

[athelind.livejournal.com]

Oh, bullSHIT we are. The world of Starship Troopers was run by veterans, not fat cats who wheedled, weaseled or bought their way out of service -- or just flat-out decided they Didn't Feel Like It.

If you didn't serve -- and, once again, "service" in that book was not simply military -- if you didn't demonstrate through personal sacrifice that you were psychologically capable of at least occasionally putting the needs of the community above your own personal convenience and comfort -- you didn't vote. And you sure as hell didn't hold office. And you sure and hell didn't get to send people off to die when you yourself had done everything in your power and your Daddy's power to keep your precious lily-white fake-Cowboy Ivy League ass out of precisely that situation.

[richardf8]

I think, however, that, were Robert Heinlein still alive, the regime of George Walker Bush would horrify him.

Yup. I too drunk deeply of Heinlein's libertarian cup. But the people who call themselves conservatives today have set nanny government in our bedrooms, our libraries, our bookstores, and our clinics, but suggest that Public Education is government-sponsored thought control.

[silussa.livejournal.com]

Actually, the Republican Party has betrayed the principals of the modern conservative movement.

The primary difference between them now seems to be what part of government they want to enlarge and strengthen.

I can't help but wonder what Ronald Reagan would think.

[paka.livejournal.com]

The Ronald Reagan who presided over expanding government, massive defense spending, and earnestly supporting the Star Wars initiative to the point of sabotaging arms talks?

Do you really need to ask?

[pathia.livejournal.com]

Despite the various holes I dug myself in that last post I really only part companies with the democrats on one issue.

1.) I'd support some sort of universal health plan
2.) I'd support college funding for all
3.) I'd support higher taxes on the rich, even though I hope to be one of them some day.
4.) I personally support gay-marriage, I'd like to see people accept in their hearts, not have it shoved down their throats by the courts first however. I fear a massive upsurge in gay-killings and violence if the courts did this.

To me, it comes down very simply to the fact that John Kerry supports abortion rights, I do not. I believe it is murder. I believe that once something has a complete set of DNA it is a member of that species.

To me, it is the greatest human genocide that has ever taken place. To me, that is as close to an infinite evil as there is, so I have no choice.

That's one of the reasons I get so angry, I have no choice.

[richardf8]

So you're going to vote for the party that defends the fetus in the womb, but abandons it when it leaves the womb?

The Republicans would have a credible case if, hand-in-hand with their anti-abortion policies, they were committed to building the support structures to make parenting that child whose "right to life" they insist upon feasible. Instead, under welfare reform, they have increased required hours working while decreasing support for childcare. The moment a woman gives birth to the child they insisted she carry to term, she becomes a "welfare queen" worthy only of contempt and condemnation. And studies have shown that pregnancy and STD rates tend to be higher among people who have taken "abstinence pledges" and become secually active than among those who actually learned about birth control.

Until the Republicans show the kind of commitment to supporting mothers and children (and that means points 1-3 of your platform up there) that Democrats traditionally have, their "pro-life" stance remains the worst sort of hypocrisy -- using the baby to punish the mother for ever having had sex in the first place. That does not strike me as very life affirming.

I realize I'm not going to turn you on this issue, but I do want to give you at least that to think about.

[pathia.livejournal.com]

Oh, believe me I think about it quite alot, but to sum it up very simply to me.

A shitty life is better than no life, in my opinion.

[richardf8]

Single Issue Voter, Eh? Well here's your boy: Michael Badnarik He's a pro-life states-rightist. And what's more, if you cast your vote for him, chances are you won't be jeopardizing the rest of your platform either.

[ssthisto.livejournal.com]

Tell that to the babies/children killed/maimed/damaged/abused by their parents either directly or through neglect. Maybe if they'd never been born, they wouldn't have suffered.

Suffering is far worse than death.

[pathia.livejournal.com]

Then let the kid his or her life on their own terms when they are old enough. I want people to have the CHOICE of living.

[ssthisto.livejournal.com]

But by their parents choosing to give birth to them, they aren't given a choice as to whether they want to live or not. They're being told they WILL live.

And certainly, when they're born to abusive, murderous parents, they're not given an educated choice as to whether they want to die early in pregnancy before they can suffer or be born, suffer and then die early in life. When they're born to parents who didn't take care of themselves while pregnant, they don't have a choice about being born as drug addicts, HIV positive, or with birth defects, some so severe that they'll cause death anyway.

And from a position of someone who knows - young adults can't always choose to end their lives either on their own terms. I was stopped - and my intent has always been and will always be that *I* will choose the time, place and means, not illness or old age.

Even adults get told they WILL live. There's no choice there.

[pathia.livejournal.com]

The vast majority of abortions, at least here in the states, are by middle to upper class white women, who just 'don't feel like having a baby right now' and forgot use some sort of contraceptive.

This is why I am so passionate about it, because abortion provides a way out that shunts maturity and responsibility for one's actions. You are the first woman I have ever met that is actually happy she got an abortion, most others I know are morbidly depressed if they think about it/ I knew a four or five other girls who got pregnant/abortions in high school. Two others committed suicide over it too later, though my HS in general was very screwed up. We had nearly 20 people do it over the time I was there, even a teacher.

I would be happiest if people should grow up enough that abortion is uncommon by virtue of education WITHOUT banning it.

[ssthisto.livejournal.com]

Having been there, I have to ask...

Since when is a blastocyst/embryo's right to continue to feed off of a living sentient woman (because by the time most abortions are performed - six to eight weeks - that's all you've got - no 'fetus', and most certainly no 'baby') more important than a currently living, contributing, feeling, emotional, aware and SENTIENT woman's right to personal autonomy and not to have a parasite that, if she wanted it, she wouldn't be attempting to get rid of it?

And you know what? Having been there... yes, to me, abortion IS murder... if that's what you call being forced to kill in self defense. Some women would really and truly rather die than be forced into a nine month period of bodily slavery, not knowing if the parasite you're incubating is going to be adoptable/whether you can afford the doctor's appointments/whether your health, both physical and mental, will stand up to it - and no guarantee that, if you CAN give it up for adoption, it won't come back in twelve, eighteen, twenty years, asking WHY you didn't want it. And the pro-life folk certainly aren't offering to take all these unwanted ones and pay for their lives, their medical expenses, their schooling, etc...

This is the one case where, unless you've had an actual life experience with UNWANTED pregnancy (not 'unplanned' - unWANTED), the stance of 'pro-life' as an opinion just cuts no mustard and throws no dice with me. I am usually open-minded and willing to listen to other points of view - but not here. Tell me you've had that kind of experience, or that your girlfriend has, and I'll listen to and accept your opinion. Until then, you don't really know what it's like. You might have an idea, a preconception... but you don't KNOW.

I would rather have died.

[pathia.livejournal.com]

All's I can say is I envy you beyond words, because you have a womb, I do not. (I am male in body, but not spirit. I've chosen not to change myself only due to the fact that I can't have kids. It's not worth it to me unless I can.

As for personal experience, I didn't know them extremely close, but I knew two kids that the following happened to.

They were both 15. The boy was quite pro-life, things got out of hand one evening, the girl ended up pregnant. She was of course very scared, but he got her to try doing an adoption. I'm not clear what happened, but she did end up having an abortion. She kept it hidden for awhile, but eventually I guess one of her 'friends' told the boyfriend about it.

He blew his head off with a shotgun the next day. Some time later, she commited suicide too, though it was never clear if the events were directly related.

That's my closest experience with someone that had an abortion.

And as I said, I believe it is a human being when it has its own DNA, this happens after conception.

Lack of nervous system doesn't mean anything to me. If you chop down a tree, is it any less dead just because it doesn't have a nervous system?

[ssthisto.livejournal.com]

Want a womb? Take mine. Mind, the connections aren't all there any more, since I NEVER want to be pregnant. Pregnancy, the early weeks of, in my experience (not opinion, experience) is nothing to get all excited about. I don't get excited about having the flu either - and the symptoms of both are about the same.

But with regards to the fact I'm not all 'connected' - I've got a tubal ligation. Sterilization. I'm 'fixed'. And you know how HARD that was to get done? At 24, nobody says 'Are you sure you won't change your mind' if you decide to make the permanent decision to have a child. But at 24 a doctor feels perfectly justified in TELLING someone who wants to make the (possibly reversable) decision never to have children that she's too young and too stupid to know what she wants. It's a procedure that is covered by the NHS here in the UK for the few people the doctors accept as 'mature' enough to make the decision. I wound up having to pay over a thousand dollars (converted) to have it done at a private clinic - but if I'd been pregnant and wanting antenatal care, I'd have had no costs and no problems.

That's still not personal experience, Dracono. That's a secondhand account, and you don't know what was going on 100%. From my third-hand perspective, it sounds like the boy decided he WANTED the baby - and the girl did NOT want the pregnancy. Maybe someone clued the girl in to how difficult adoption processes can be. Maybe her parents found out and took her to the clinic themselves. Maybe she decided she didn't want to be pressured into giving birth to a baby she couldn't support, be pregnant and have to drop out of school, or generally ruin her life. And maybe she didn't want to tell him because she knew him well enough.

And you know what? He made a mistake in killing himself. His decision to kill himself might well have been what made her kill herself. But what would he have done if she'd miscarried?

My problem with your argument, that it's a human being when it's got its own DNA, is that, really, a tapeworm ALSO has its own DNA. Is it acceptable to you for me to worm my cats? It's not an actual human being until it's viable outside of the parasite existence - say, five or six months along? I mean, a tapeworm's alive, too. It's got DNA and a nervous system and everything. What if *I* had a tapeworm? To me, it's just a matter of the type of parasitism.

I never said a blastocyst/embryo doesn't have a nervous system - it's developing. I said a blastocyst/embryo is not sentient and aware. Trees ARE 'aware' in a way I can't quite describe - they're aware when they're being fed upon by another animal and can produce anti-feedant chemicals, for example. And chopping a tree down doesn't necessarily kill it. For that matter, cows and chickens are aware - and I'd say that, in their own way, they're also sentient. Doesn't stop me from eating them.

[pathia.livejournal.com]

Tapeworms don't grow into humans.

[ssthisto.livejournal.com]

Neither do 25% of recognized human pregnancies (miscarriage after pregnancy is verified)
And for that matter, even more pregnancies - maybe as many as one in three - are miscarried before the woman in question even suspects she might be pregnant.

But what makes a human intrinsically 'better' than a tapeworm?

What makes a human better?

[hitchkitty.livejournal.com]

Very simple:

Human babies are kyooote and pwecious. Tapeworms aren't. That's what makes them better.

Re: What makes a human better?

[ssthisto.livejournal.com]

Eeeeurgh. Human babies ... cute?

Kittens, yes. Baby alligators, yes. Puppies, yeah.

None of them excretes foul-smelling slime from both ends that has to be cleaned up for the better part of their first year unless they're sick.

I'd rather have a tapeworm - at least then, I'm on a biological weight-loss plan *grins*

[pathia.livejournal.com]

I'm well aware of these facts and there I really don't think there is anything better about a human than a tapeworm, other than I am a human and so is the proto-fetus.

That means something to me, maybe I just have a very strong preservation of species urge in me, because it'd be hard as hell to have children myself, thus there is no preservation of my own young urge.

[pathia.livejournal.com]

And for the record, if I ever for some bizarre reason get extremely rich, I'm going to do exactly what you say no one will do.

I'll setup a charity for the sole purpose of paying for the birth/adoption costs for mother's who would otherwise abort.


Of course, getting rich is the hard part.

[ssthisto.livejournal.com]

You know what?

Even if there had been money and a charity for it...

I would STILL have made the same decision.

I would rather die than be pregnant and give birth.

I'm not alone.

[pathia.livejournal.com]

Then I feel very sorry for you and it only makes me hate the twisted humor of fate even more.

My being male is a bit more complicated than my chromosomes (Hint: They aren't what you'd think they are), but I don't really like to discuss that wholly in public.

[ssthisto.livejournal.com]

Why feel sorry for me?

Just because I'm female doesn't mean I -want- to have kids. Given the choice, I'd be biologically male (and vasectomized) - but the choice doesn't exist. Given the alternatives, I'm happy to be a sterilized female, able and in control of my own body.

And if I got pregnant now, I'd have no choice BUT to have the pregnancy terminated, because ectopics are life-threatening. And my life is more important to me than the possibility that I might be killing the next Elvis.

And just for the record: I'm pro-choice, not pro-abortion. I believe everyone has the right to choose what is right for THEM. Nobody has the right to choose what is right for me except me. Nobody has the right to tell you that YOU should be sterilized/have an abortion/give a kid up for adoption/keep a child you don't want. I'm happy to allow pro-life folk the choice of what to do with their own bodies, but I'm not letting them have the choice of what to do with mine.

[pathia.livejournal.com]

That's just it, I am pretty damn close to sterile as it is and it wasn't my choice.

[ssthisto.livejournal.com]

Say, in some mythical way, you could have been given a choice between two options before your birth:

1. Your mom discovers the problem causing your apparent sterility early in pregnancy and chooses to abort and try again - and your soul gets carried to the next body in question.
2. You know what you're going to be born like, that you're never going to get to choose to have kids, and certainly that you're never going to get to carry children as a female.

Some people - maybe not you - would choose to try again instead of getting born into a life they would be unhappy in.

Hell, if I'd gotten to choose my own personal situation, I wouldn't be here in my present form at all. But my parents chose for me. They decided to make me and they decided to give birth to me and name me and really, they made all the choices up until I was about sixteen.

Given an option and a choice, I'd probably trade you bodies.

But even an adult human isn't considered competent to make a decision like THAT. Heck, adult humans aren't considered competent to choose when they themselves want to die.

[pathia.livejournal.com]

You're assuming that I believe in souls, I'm not particularly religious myself, I'm rather agnostic.

However, given that choice yes I would take the latter. That said what causes my issues with being fertile is not detectable during birth, we'd need another 50or so years, maybe more, before my particular type of situation could be detected in the womb.

Mea culpa

[iridium-wolf.livejournal.com]

Hey Athelind,

I'd like to apologize for being drawn out in that previous entry as I was. I let the troll do what trolls do best, get under one's skin. For allowing it to happen in your journal, I'm truly sorry.

Take care, eat lots.

--Iridium